tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7674624297271677945.post1552283883141883953..comments2023-07-23T00:43:30.334-07:00Comments on Theo's: How Making Love Can Make Us HolyThe Rev. John Kirkleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17915490727988762513noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7674624297271677945.post-28186555335264968742006-05-11T23:05:01.720-07:002006-05-11T23:05:01.720-07:00Hi, John:Thanks for these two tremendous pieces on...Hi, John:<br><br>Thanks for these two tremendous pieces on holy union and the place of sexuality in them!<br><br>I have a question. . .could you clarify how you would reconcile these two statements (taken from each of the blog entries):<br><br>"Only the couple making a gift of their persons to one another can create marriage as a sacrament. This gift-giving must create a union of their persons that is a sharing in all of life."<br><br>-and-<br><br><br>"Furthermore, just as candidates for holy orders must submit their sense of call to the judgment of the Church, candidates for marriage/blessing ceremonies would be subject to the community’s discernment of their readiness for this commitment. Again, the rite is a sacrament of the Church, not the couple’s personal possession, and it is for the upbuilding of the community, not simply the 'bride’s big day.'"<br><br>I tend to agree with both statements. . .I certainly understand the tension -- the same one worked out in any discernment process between <i>my</i> (or <i>our</i>) will and <i>God's</i> will. But at the surface, allowing the community to make the final judgment (because the sacrament belongs to the church) versus the couple being the only ones capable of enacting the sacrificial act of the sacrament seems to have some inherent contradiction.<br><br>Carrying this one step further, we presently are in a church where, say, a same-gendered (and even, for that matter, a man and a woman) couple may not be permitted to enter a union in a public rite in one community, but might be permitted in another. To carry your analogy with ordination forward into this, it is similar to one diocese refusing to ordain someone, and another diocese agreeing to do so. Clearly, this happens all the time.<br><br>This also brings to mind the presently subdued but ongoing debate over open communion. When does the individual's welcome and graceful expression of faith trump the community's right to reverently steward the sacramental life of the church? (I'm for open table, myself, but I certainly see both sides of the argument.)<br><br>Returning to the more focused nature of these pieces, I wonder what thoughts you have about how we can address both validity of call to holy union for a couple and the innate tension in that calling between the personal and communal stewardship of the sacrament. In short, what do we do when the community and the couple disagree about the call?<br><br>Many thanks again,<br><br>RRhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16080022546165682711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7674624297271677945.post-27300594049110624572006-05-12T11:04:02.990-07:002006-05-12T11:04:02.990-07:00John,Thanks for these two outstanding postings on ...John,<br><br>Thanks for these two outstanding postings on marriage, same-sex blessings, sex and sacrament.<br><br>As a person trying to make sense of my own relationship, I appreciate reading your thoughts. And, I'm also grateful to you for building the case for the equal blessings of life-long partnerships between two individuals, regardless of sexuality.<br><br>I'm stuck, however, on one idea: the idea of sin as "the fear of the loss of self." I take that to mean that our greatest fear and the one that drives us away from God is that we're not ultimately in control of ourselves. Is that right? Can you explain more?<br><br>NeilNeilhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09607945085948376906noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7674624297271677945.post-37438120251669815382006-05-12T12:49:40.486-07:002006-05-12T12:49:40.486-07:00Fr. John,Thanks for this reflection as well. I th...Fr. John,<br><br>Thanks for this reflection as well. I think Fr. R+'s (good to see you R--you may remember me from seminary). I must say that at present in many places, same-sex couples find themselves in tension with the wider Church even if their relationships are growing in holiness, so that submission to the wider Church for blessing is not always an option. <br><br>It's a great ideal, but again, I feel like so much of this C and I've had to do on our own with the support of the Church that most often did not include the clergy but rather members of the Body who have cared for us and supported us and encouraged us from across Church traditions from UCC to TEC, from ELCA to RC and UMC, so while the import of relationship as sacramental is greatly appreciated, present power structures present serious problems to the blossoming of same-sex unions. <br><br>This was worsened in our case by active hostility on the part of C's Church which caused serious detriment to our capacity to let our love expand and upbuild the wider community, and it is simply quite amazing to watch these last few months how that capacity has suddenly been activated, with no small thanks to St. John's.Christopherhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10046730674885986542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7674624297271677945.post-32882615770303391192006-05-13T07:45:59.880-07:002006-05-13T07:45:59.880-07:00Thank you for these two meditations, John. I am su...Thank you for these two meditations, John. I am sure I will read and re-read them over the next several months. They are speaking to me on two levels... First, as a person who tried (or believed she was trying) to make a true marriage and finally abandoned it in despair...I am still doing "failure analysis" and your ideas are giving me some insights about the distance between the marriage I wanted and the one I actually had. Second, as one finding myself on the path toward a new committed relationship that offers the potential to be the sacramental relationship I dreamed of.hleighhhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06389455581022561634noreply@blogger.com